To the now-generation basketball fans, excuse me for being more than 30 years old. When I played hoops, or anything else for that matter, I wore Converse “Chuck Taylor” canvas sneakers. The first time I bought “basketball shoes” was circa 1969. They were Adidas. And while I thought they were cool, they were also too damn heavy. So when ranking my greatest NBA players of all-time, I actually took into consideration players pre-1980. Hell, pre-1960. After all, the list is “all-time.”
As I read today’s columns and blogs about the game’s greatest players, I’ve concluded that writers are either aiming at the younger-than-30 crowd or have little knowledge of the truly great players from yesteryear. Many in the now-generation actually include Kobe and LeBron in their top 5 list of best ever. Of course, that’s nonsense. Maybe LeBron will soon be included (once he wins a championship or two), but he’s not there yet. As for Kobe, he’s certainly a great player and could be in the top 10 by the time he retires, but forget the top 5.
I realize athleticism plays a role in comparing NBA players of today to those who wore Converse canvas sneakers but, rest assured, Russell, Wilt and The Big “O” take a back seat to no one in today’s game. Maybe the game has changed, but great basketball players endure. Larry Bird was a good athlete, but he was a great basketball player.
So, if you’re younger than 30 or living in Chicago, you might want to click off now, as I give you my top 5 greatest NBA players of all-time.
5. Larry Bird
4. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Oscar Robertson
2. Michael Jordan
1. Bill Russell
Tough to keep off the list: Kareem, Magic, Dr. J. and Jerry West.
Were has the time gone?
Kareem, Magic, Dr. J. and Jerry West are all good candidates for a Top Ten, add Elgin Baylor, and that could round out a good list.
Comment by Bostonian — June 9, 2009 @ 10:40 am
Jordon #2? I never saw Russell play, but Mike is my #1.
Comment by hoopster — June 9, 2009 @ 1:36 pm
Old school is good, but don’t leave out the post-Jordan era either. I think you have to give top-10 consideration to Shaq and Duncan as well. Certainly they’re ahead of Kobe and LBJ.
Comment by etomai — June 10, 2009 @ 1:37 pm
Bill Russell is the greatest team sport athlete EVER!
Comment by Delmartian — June 12, 2009 @ 4:55 am
Sorry etomai, but as great as your two players were, I doubt they’d make anyone’s top 10 list. At least anyone who knows of basketball’s past.
Comment by MrMet — June 12, 2009 @ 4:58 am
Jordan 1, he did dominate at 6′6″, easy to dominate like Russell and Wilt when you’re bigger than everyone else during their times.
Comment by Charley — June 13, 2009 @ 12:46 am
To my friend Charley….first of all Bill Russell was lucky if he was 6′ 9″ - and no one dominated a game more than he. He actually ‘changed’ the game of basketball with his defensive prowess. And, there were a number of ‘big men’ in the league during the Russell-Wilt era, albeit not as talented.
Jordon dominated the NBA post Bird and Magic, when the league took a step back. Those Jordon Bulls teams could never have beaten the Lakers or Celtics teams of Magic and Bird.
Jordon #2 (maybe). Did you ever see the Big O play?
Comment by MrMet — June 14, 2009 @ 4:55 am
I think a lot of fans are really in denial when it comes to Kobe. His career is not over yet. He is top 5 greatest players easy. West and Dr. J ahead of Kobe is a joke. He will finish in the top 3 when it is all over.
Comment by Larry — June 16, 2009 @ 4:08 am
You don’t even give reasoning for your rankings, so how is anyone supposed to take them seriously? All you talk about is some old fart mumbo jumbo, lol.
Russel and Jordan, and possibly Bird, are the only two on that list that should be in the top five. Big O couldn’t win a title until he got Kareem…and you rank him 3rd greatest all time and leave Kareem off??? That makes no sense at all.
Please, tell us how you came up with your rankings.
Comment by MikeO — June 17, 2009 @ 8:59 pm
To my friend MikeO… First of all, I don’t need to provide you or anyone with my reasons for my top 5. They’re simply my picks after years of observing the NBA. If you’re into stats, I suggest you go to basketball-reference.com.
Also, I wasn’t ranking the top 5 ‘champions’ of all-time, but the top 5 ‘players’ of all time. You obviously never saw the Big O play. If I was ranking players by championships, they’d all be Celtics and Lakers. Kareem was great - just not in MY top 5. But, thanks for writing!
Comment by Don — June 21, 2009 @ 6:28 am
Jordan isn’t a top 5 player of all time, certainly the greatest of his time but if he played during the 60’s he’s not winning too many MVP’s. His era was the Bulls and then everyone else because the great players like Isiah and Magic had retired by the time he started winning. Not to mention that players like Pistol Pete are just forgotten about. People are just trying to remember the most recent great player and automatically put him at the top, but if you really take a step back and look at the entire body of work players like Wilt are ahead of him easy.
Comment by Chris — June 21, 2009 @ 10:09 pm
Hot topic right now with all of these new fans that have watched at least ten games. Oscar was better than Jordan, Kobe and all the rest of the guards by far. He would be right there after Russell and Wilt. Bird and Elgin (or West if need a guard) is as good as it gets. Did someone mention Shaq? He is lucky if he is a top twenty center. I just read a book on this very topic called “Need To Argue”. Round out top ten with West, Magic, Michael, Kareem and Julius.
Comment by Carl Braun — July 2, 2009 @ 3:28 pm
my top ten would be kareem, oscar, bird, magic, jordan, erving, west, frazier, russell, and dennis johnson. i could not lose with this team, if i did, i should be fired as a coach. this team could beat any other ten in n.b.a. history
Comment by george young — July 7, 2009 @ 12:45 am
Wow I gotta say that not putting the Logo himself (Jerry West) on the charts is unbelievable to me, not to mention his former team member Kareem Abdul Jabbar! These to guys made the Lakers and the LEAGUE what it is today! They are my all time favorite and are what I call True Legends and I can’t wait until September gets here because people are going to be so amazed at how well they BOTH play Poker! Which brings me to say, TALENTED! Spending my leisure time with these guys in the Atlantis Bahamas this fall and playing poker with them is what all dream of and I get to!
Comment by shender — July 9, 2009 @ 10:20 am
Jordan is the greatest of all time, to how someone states Oscar, or Russell is better is completely beyond me. Bill was a Team Winner without a doubt, however the Celtics of the 60’s were absolutely loaded in contrast the entire league at the time.
Not to mention in the early 60’s, there was only Eight Teams! Then it finally reached 9 Teams, and at the end of the Celtics dynasty, only 14 teams. Seriously, winning 11 Championships are great, however in contrast to other era’s, like the 80’s and 90’s, I give credit far more to other players like Michael, Bird, and or Magic.
Competition in the 60’s were not in the same breath and league as what was seen in the 80’s and the 90’s. However we’ll get into this later. The Big-O was not as good as Jordan, as incredible of a player as the Big-O was, he was nowhere as athletic as Michael was, for where Big-O would be doing lay ups, MJ would have been dunking on people.
Big-O’s triple doubles were very impressive, however he also played the Point Guard Position which is supposed to distribute the ball to players so this should also coincide with his statistics on this, remember, that MJ during that one year he played the PG position he almost nearly averaged Triple Doubles per game with 32ppg, 8.0 rpg, and 8.0 apg.
You take into the factor of how they scored, which MJ would edge the Big-O out on. The Big-O was the monster fadeaway shooter, however Michael did it just as good however with more deadlier efficiency, some may go “How?”. You go and watch their games played again, watch the tapes, and you’ll notice, due to Michael’s more athletic body, he has a far greater vertical leap, this makes his Fadeaway truly unstoppable and nearly impossible to stop.
They both shot almost relatively the same, with Big-0 at averaging at 49%, while Michael is at 50%, so both players were extremely consistent shooters.
However, you take these into consideration, Michael’s First Step, is the most broken first step ever seen in NBA History, in contrast to the Big-O who’s first was great, but not within the same league as Michael’s, nobodies is, period.
You add in the biggest factor, and this is that watching the numerous games of Big-O (I have NBA movie collections with some dating even as far back as the 50’s, although some of them are extremely difficult to watch due to how they were played) his defensive game, is sub-par at best.
Michael’s on the other hand is one if the best, if not the best 1 on 1 defender, ever (Only Pippen rivals him and possibly better due to his way more insanely longer arms, and his stronger frame, and Peyton as well).
You also act within the era in which they played in…I’m sorry, but MJ’s era, was the most gifted, and loaded out of any era in NBA History. The 80’s and 90’s were absolutely loaded with phenomenal and powerful teams across the board.
As much as some people like to claim, the 80’s did not play as defensive oriented as the 90’s era. In fact, the 90’s era is the most heavily defensive dominant era of any time period. You go back and watch the games of the Celtics and Lakers of the 80’s and you’ll notice the crazy 100+ pt games that ensues.
However, due to MJ’s sheer dominance on the court, everyone began to follow suite in the footsteps of the Detroit Pistons, because it showed success (why not, it stopped MJ for 3 straight years to get to the finals). Have you ever had entire teams completely change their defensive games simply because of one player other then Wilt back in prime years. Numerous teams did exactly what Detroit did, having more then one guy to take on MJ, and whenever he came inside, he would not be contested by one or two, but the entire 5-man roster on the floor. In fact, the defense became so dominant in the 90’s, that Stern tried to find ways to make it more “offensive oriented” due to too many defensive dominant teams which dropped the overall scoring average in the NBA during the 90’s in contrast to the 80’s.
This is why I give far more credit to MJ, because he played in a more talented era, and the most heavily defensive oriented era in contrast to any of the other would be consider greats of the NBA History, and still come out with 6 Championships.
Yes, you need a great team around you, in order to create a dynasty, that much is certain, however MJ is the greatest, he is the overall total package, you just look at all of the “Greats” you mark up there, and I can name at least one or two weaknesses they had (Big-O’s defensive game, Wilt’s FT game, Bill the same, etc, etc), yet MJ is the only one whom across the board does not have any significant disadvantage you can exploit.
MJ #1
Comment by Bub — July 10, 2009 @ 2:57 am
There seems to be some revisionist history here, while Bub is all over the place trying to convince someone that MJ is the greatest while he may have seen Oscar play a game on tape. Russell and Wilt played in the strongest era for centers. Oscar and Jerry also played in an era where the rosters were deeper and not the watered down variety of today. Michael was a great scorer for years and never did anything in the playoffs until Pippen and Cartwright arrived (as well as Phil) and showed him the way. As far as the great era he played in, he did very well once Magic and Bird could no longer. Please don’t mix eras. Jordan didn’t have the great rival like Wilt-Russell, Larry-Magic, … Michael beat good players like Barkley, Drexler,and others who can not be confused with the greatest players of all-time like Wilt, Russell, Oscar, West, Elgin…
Comment by Carl Braun — July 13, 2009 @ 3:13 pm
from the start of the league the nba created legendary warriors but there is only 1 can raise to the limit…..MJ…the greatest of all legendary warriors of the NBA…
Comment by donlaps — July 14, 2009 @ 9:02 pm
based on? Why is he automatically the best ever? Great and greater players did exist. Did they have as much hype? No. If this is based on hype then, so be it, but on basketball careers- he is not the best.
Comment by Carl Braun — July 16, 2009 @ 3:26 pm
Russell and Wilt played in the strongest Era of Centers? Please Carl Braun, name me all of the so called great centers that came out of 60’s that would rival those in the 90’s?
Ewing
Hawkeem
Malone
Kareem
Shaq
Robinson
Just to name a few, and btw, Wilt dominated because at the time, there was no centers who was 7′+, in fact, the average Centers at the time were around 6′9, that’s why Mikan dominated the centers in the 50’s being only at 6′10, which was unheard of at the time.
Your also forgetting that Russell won championships with a super loaded HoF Team. Did you forget Cousy, did you forget KC Jones, how about Havlicek, or Sam Jones? Right, Russell didn’t “have” a calibur team, in fact, Russell had a more HoF loaded team then any of MJ’s championship teams.
Also, MJ not playing during Bird or Magic’s era? You on drugs or something? Yes, he wasn’t playing with a Championship Team to contend against them, however your trying to compare Championship loaded teams to a Chicago Bulls that really only had one REAL threat there. Who did Jordan have to truly rely upon in his early years as a Bulls member?
How about Magic or Bird in contrast? Magic had one of the greatest Centers to ever pick up a basketball…did you forget big game James? Or Cooper? What about Bird, who had arguably the best 3-Man front line of all time with McHale and Parish.
My goodness, you want to compare complete teams to a Jordan who didn’t have anyone who could truly rely on during his early years. Pippen didn’t even blossom until the 91 season, and the samething with Horace Grant. If you remember correctly, Pippen had serious, serious problems going up against the Pistons during the 3 year flop they had, due to him not being able to hold his composure, while Grant got annihilated in the paint.
Lastly, Jordan didn’t have rivals, because NOBODY was on Jordan’s level. Barkley was a freak during the early 90’s, and he would give any other Power Forward a run for their money. Did you forget the early 90’s Knicks with a in his prime Ewing? They would have WON a Championship during that time had it not of been for Michael Jordan and the Bulls.
The defensive domination team of the Sonics with a in his prime monster Kemp and the defensive deity Peyton would have done a number on any championship team, however Michael and the Bulls played arguably the best all around defensive season ever in NBA history. Opponents score of 92ppg is atest to that, compare it to other greats like the 87 Lakers who had let their opponents gain 107ppg or the 86 Celtics with 102 ppg…a HUGE differential.
Fact is truth, you need more then one “GREAT” player to win it all, you need another guy you can depend upon. Look at the 60’s Celtics, 80’s Lakers or Celtics, to even the 3-peat Lakers of the 2000 Era. All of those teams at least had two HoF players or more in that line up.
Teams win championships, not individualism, however Michael’s individualism was nearly perfect across all aspects of the board. The next time you can find someone like the Big-O playing defense as well as MJ, phone me, or show a time Jerry West has a first step and get into the paint like MJ give me a hollar, or see if Wilt can land FT’s in the clutch, please tell me.
Ever spoke to Magic or Bird? Bird even stated that during the 86 Playoff’s when he started to guard MJ, it got even easier for him to score at will then before with other people guarding him. 45 points in Game 1, and 63 in game 2 against one of the greatest NBA teams ever assembled? Imagined if MJ actually “had” a team then.
Magic states “There’s MJ and then theirs the rest of us.” Even Pat Riley who coached the 80’s ShowTime Lakers stated an in interview “No Team can beat a Michael Jordan led Bulls”…so who’s really fronting here?
Again, look at it across the boards, talk to people who played against MJ, and they’ll tell you, had no real weaknesses you could exploit (Jerry West even stated this within an Interview and guess who he played against the likes of??? Wilt, Russell, Big-O…hmmm.), this coupled with his unmatched athleticism, superb fundamentals and his drive to win (which Magic even states MJ’s will to win>>>>His own), then you’ve got the closest thing to perfection as their is for a BB player.
Comment by Bub — July 19, 2009 @ 3:23 pm
You can’t really claim Moses and Kareem in the 90’s, when their best days were in the 70’s, then the 80’s (great too) while just hanging on in the 90’s. So you have Ewing, Hakeem, Robinson and Shaq- 4 guys all great, but only 4. Wilt played against the best in Russell ( none of those 4 approach him in any way). Nate Thurmond was as good as anybody. Willis Reed, Walt Bellamy, Wes Unseld, Dave Cowens…
Russell won titles on a team that was always a bridesmaid prior to him arriving. They needed him and may not have won the way they did with anyone else.
MJ had a good team when he arrived and then dissected it.
Gus Williams, Caldwell Jones, Orlando Woolridge, David Greenwood, Dave Corzine and talented/troubled Quentin Dailey. These guys all had good careers (except short one from Dailey) and some were winners. MJ didn’t really bring this team together. Magic would have, maybe Isiah too.
Magic got to a Laker team that was very good, but wasn’t going to win anymore until he arrived. Kareem was ready to leave before he got rejuvinated by young Magic. Worthy wasn’t there yet, Wilkes was though. Bird improved the Celtics the year before Robert and Kevin arrived. Cornbread and Tiny were no slouches either.
Scottie Pippen was every bit as good as any teammate Larry or Magic had. He nearly got the Bulls to the Finals without MJ. I am not sure Michael could have done it without Scottie. I’d have a pretty good argument that Larry could win without Kevin and Magic could win without James.
No one on Michael’s level when he was winning isn’t a selling point. In Larry and Magic’s prime (and healthy), Michael scored in droves and barely improved his team more than Reggie Theus did. Larry and Magic immediately made winners of their teams.
Patrick Ewing was mentioned as a rival and is great, but not on the level of Wilt, Russell, Oscar, West, Magic, Elgin, Kareem or even Michael.
You mention the Payton Sonics as an opponent. If you switch Michael and Payton, the Bulls still win. Michael’s individualism was outstanding, but did he ever truly make his teammates better, like Magic, Larry or Russell did?
Larry and Magic speaking well of Michael is hardly a good argument either because they both are still involved in the NBA and the machine it has become. They could never speak ill of Michael because he is still being sold, as (now) is Kobe and LeBron. Also Magic-speak should be taken with a grain of salt after his self-proclaimed inspiration from the other MJ at his funeral.
Comment by Carl Braun — July 21, 2009 @ 6:49 pm
You’ve got to be kidding me, he didn’t make his teammates better? Are you serious here, the reason they won Championships was because MJ elevated his team within the 90’s, even Phil stated this blatantly.
You remember Phils comments right? If MJ keeps playing to where he thinks only “He” can bring his team to win, then they flat out will never win a championship.
That’s why when the 91 season rolled around, MJ changed his viewpoint of play, along with how the coaching of Jackson tried to emphasize in contrast to the coaches previous to him.
Remember that during MJ’s youthful years of the 80’s, he was told by his coaches to bring his team to win, look at Doug Collins and see how much he depended upon MJ to get them to win. This was a fundamental flaw in their strategy, which was exploited by the Pistons for 3 straight years.
During the 91 season, MJ elevated the players of his teammates, and this was evident by the match up against Detroit. Watch it again, they tried to exploit the Jordan Rules, and MJ simply gave the ball away to his teammates, where as Pre-91, he would have fired in nearly all the time by his lonesome.
Even Magic stated this accord, many years later about MJ. Yes, I agree with you, MJ didn’t elevate his team so much so in the 80’s, however that was a learning proccess for him to grip, however individual wise he was right up there with the greats of that time. However Magic said that once MJ learned to make his teammates play at his level, then they started to win championships, and more importantly, it went perfectly with when Pippen and Grant were starting to hit their primes as well.
You make the claim that Magic wouldn’t have won without “James” however you never could be more wrong, maybe in the “early” 3 championships he “could have” however that would have been a huge factor going up against the Celtics. However, 87-88, Worthy was a freak of nature. Maybe you forgot, but he was one of the biggest reasons why they were so dominant in the later half of the 80’s, James was one of the biggest contributors in a time when Kareem’s numbers were dropping.
Also, no way Bird more championships if he didn’t have McHale, you don’t remember that during the playoff’s to the Celtics first championship, Mchale made a CRUCIAL block on Andrew Tony’s shot and obtained the rebound, to give the Celtics the 1-pt lead. “Had” Bird of not had McHale at this time, he would not have gone into the championship series at all. McHale was an absolute monster on here in the boards, because he was absolutely amazing with his long arms and elusiveness, talk to Barkley, he even stated that the hardest guy for him to guard was McHale, because of the long arms, and the way he moved, made him incredibly difficult to watch over.
To make the claim that Magic and Bird would have dominated without these two key HoF players is absolutely ridiculous. “If” neither the Lakers or the Celtics did not have James or McHale, the 76er’s would have gone on to win more Championships, along with the Houston Rockets and possibly even the Jazz in one particular season were they were incredible.
You talk about Ewing and him not being good, however a in his prime Ewing would have been able to have hung with almost anyone within the league at Center. The fact that you don’t give enough credit to the early 90’s Knicks is significant enough, considering that they had a dominating defense, a powerful 3-Man Front, and they simply annihilated opponents, especially during the 1992 season.
They played a monster defensive game, which was their strongest point, and they played aggressive to boot. Watch those series again, and you’ll see that whenever you entered the paint, you got killed. Watch Cartwright go in, and get laid out, falling flat on his back, only to get a “foul” call on him, the defensive game of the Knicks in the early 90’s were absolutely brutal.
Pat Riley purposely imployed this tactic, because of the success of Pistons in the late and early 90’s with MJ and the Bulls. In fact, ALOT of teams were imploying this whenever they were playing against MJ. Fact is simple, “had” the Knicks not of had to have confronted the Bulls+MJ, they would have gone to win the championship that season. No way the Blazers would have out muscled the Knicks in the Championship.
The Sonics with the “switching” of MJ and Peyton and the Bulls winning “may” have some credibility, however again, this is theory base. Because “if” we do this, then we have to equate alot of other factors that you simply didn’t take into note.
First and foremost, the Bull’s Defense would have to switch a great deal simply because of one man…Michael Jordan. Try to claim that it wouldn’t, however teams would and always did something extra when MJ was around. It wasn’t even about 1 on 1, however asking other players to watch him as well, this would be a huge factor.
Because now the Bulls would not have their big scorerer anymore, sure Peyton can provide the defensive end, however he simply does not add the additional factor of the points that the Bulls would have needed.
In fact, the Bulls without MJ that year in 96 would not have won 72 games period. In one particular game, against Vancouver, MJ scored 19 pts in 6 mins to give the Bulls the win…no way Peyton does anything remotely like that, period.
You add in the factor, that a Kemp in his prime played solid defense, and was absolutely unstoppable going into the paint, and you give him Michael Jordan whom that year looked like the early 90’s MJ. They would have flat out beat the Bulls w/ Peyton in 6 games.
Bulls would lose, because 1. they don’t have their big threat 2. They will now have to build defenses simply to try and contain MJ so he doesn’t flat out kill them.
That’s why the Bulls won 6 Championships, because Teams had to always factor MJ, for their was no player within the 80’s or 90’s who could single handedly annihilate you at will. The reason why the Bulls become a dynasty in the 90’s was not just because of MJ, but the fact that once MJ elevated his teammates, to be on his level, it became almost impossible to stop them.
Because even on a night that “MJ” may not be socring 30 ppg’s, either Pippen steps up, or Kukoc, or Kerr are killing you at the point. Defenses, always have to keep a steady eye on MJ, yet they have to be sitting their simply watching other team members from the Bulls kill them.
This is how big of an impact, MJ made, because it forced you to having to use your 5-Man on the court to constantly be watching out for him. Which gave greater accessibility to the other Bulls players to cement their place. I agree with you, Pippen was a monster in his own right, however again, you forget, you need more then one “Excellent” player to win a Championship. Pippen was phenomenal in going 55 wins in 94, however without another Top-Tier threat, he eventually lost out to the Knicks.
Another note, I meant to say 80’s and 90’s for Centers, not just 90’s. MJ’s era had far better overall Center’s period, Willis Reed and all were great, however in contrast to players like Hawkeem and Shaq, I’d take a in his prime Hawkeem or Shaq over any other center in the 60’s who’s name wasn’t Wilt Chamberlain.
Also, Magic and Larry do regard him as the best, Larry made an argument once during their 92 Olympics when Magic, MJ, and Bird talked that night with Larry saying, “Magic, you and I were great, but Michael’s the best now.” Even in another quote, Larry stated MJ is not less then Top Two within the NBA.
You talk all you want, however the facts remain simple, Magic, and Bird individually did not dominate the league in the same fashion MJ did. In fact, did you ever hear a time in which entire teams would build their defenses just to soley try and stop one man as they did with Michael?
Also, you forgot that Magic and Bird played Sub-Par Defense, a huge factor into labeling “Best Player of all time”. In fact, Bird’s inside game was sub-par due to him lacking athleticism.
So really, how’s Michael not the best again? You talk about Wilt, Russell, and their competition, however a WHOLE 8-9 teams through much of the 60’s until the late 60’s when there was a WHOPPING 11 teams…right? Russell had a LOADED HoF team, just look at all of them whom came out of just the Celtics within the 60’s, over 5+ on that team alone!
Michael Jordan is the G.O.A.T., he could score, he had one of the most dominant one on one defenses ever, he had monster fundamentals, the greatest first step ever, arguably the greatest fade away shooter ever, the greatest Clutch Player ever (more so then Mr. Clutch himself), could elevate the game of his teammates.
MJ did all of those, and so much more, the Big-O was not the complete package, neither was Russell, nor was Wilt, nor was Magic or even Bird. The greatest NBA player ever should be a player who can bring everything to the table and have overall no to little weaknesses, and MJ is the only player in NBA history to come close to that notion.
That’s why he’s the greatest ever, bar none.
Comment by Bub — July 22, 2009 @ 11:03 am
First my compliments on some good points. I am glad to see you are not one of the Jordan-supporters who downplay Pippen. Scottie was a great player in his own right and I am still surprised at how far they went without MJ. A bad call versus the Knicks goes the other way and Chicago plays Houston in a winnable series. I also feel it is a strong argument that Chicago had more success with Scottie and without Michael than the reverse. If you look at the supporting casts closely, they aren’t that different except for Phil being the far superior coach.
I am also glad you supported James and Kevin strongly. It wasn’t my plan to minimize them. My point and I said it poorly was that they were the best two teams prior to their arrival. Maxwell and Wilkes more than held their own.
As far as the Sixers taking the East, they weren’t built to last (not on purpose). Moses was brought in to get Doc his “NBA” title. Doc was close to done, but the potential was there for them to continue. That was nipped in the bud (sorry) when Toney’s career was cut short. He was to be their next superstar.
Our major disagreement is about Jordan. I will break it into two parts: Part A being MJ not making his teammates better like the other top players did (Russell, Bird, Magic, Cousy) and Part B that MJ is not the obvious top player of all-time.
Part A. I will start with the other guard position where reasonably decent players like Craig Hodges, John Paxson, Trent Tucker, BJ Armstrong, Bobby Hanson, Steve Kerr and others were left to wait in corners or to follow on the perimeter until Michael was in trouble. Some of these guys had potential to be more than the complimentary ‘only-when-Michael-needs-me’ types, but it wasn’t meant to be that way. Of course, they were all dutifully there in order to not receive Michael’s wrath.
Center Bill Cartwright was an offensive force and all-star in New York. He outplayed Detroit and more than held his own versus Robert Parish in the playoffs during the Bernard King dominant seasons. In Chicago he was asked to set screens and play defense. For what Cartwright was asked to do, it limited him to a status of lesser players like Wil Perdue and Luc Longley. Horace Grant began his career in Chicago and did get to show his versatility after he went elsewhere. The team offense limited its players not named Michael or Scottie.
Is Michael making these guys better or is it the opposite?
Part B might be tougher for you to swallow, but I ask you to chew on it for awhile before passing judgement.
I agree that Michael is a great player and one of the best ever. What I question is why many think it is such a knockout that he is all by himself as the greatest. He has flaws just like the rest. He had some mere mortal years, just like the rest. He had a dominant teammate when he was winning just like the rest.
I believe the conversation for the greatest player of all-time is a real tough one that should involve eight very different players. Two are centers, two are forwards and four are guards.
Bill Russell was the guy I feel was the greatest teammate of all-time, he is the guy who made all of his teammates better. His defense is the greatest weapon in the sport. He ran the floor and changed the game like no other and most importantly, he was a winner. Critics would say his offense would be his weakest trait. I think his offense was what it needed to be on the team he was on. He would have scored more on a weaker team. Who wants that?
Wilt Chamberlain was the greatest individual player. He could do everything. He didn’t always have the greatest teammates to help him win. At the end he went to LA to help get West his title, but in his prime for the Warriors or Sixers he needed that Pippen type player. The one season his team put it all together in Philly could be the greatest team ever (could be). Critics would say he didn’t always show the killer instinct to be a winner. My critique (which you won’t like) is that his teammates, like Jordan’s did a lot of standing around watching. It doesn’t sound like he made them better (true of both of them).
Larry Bird definitely made his teammates better. He had the terrific first step. He is the prime example of a player being quick and not fast. He was an excellent rebounder, as well as shooter. The only thing to ever stop him was the end of his career injuries. Critics will say he didn’t win enough. I’d say he and Magic both elevated the game without winning like Russell or Jordan, but they had each other as ultimate rivals. That would be more plusses for Russell, while more minuses for Wilt (losing the wars) and Michael (no legitimate rival).
Elgin Baylor is one people forget. He was as dominant as anyone could be. He like Michael pre-Cartwright was a legitimate center away from winning some titles. Critics will mention the lack of titles. It is why Dominique isn’t classified with Michael and vice versa.
Oscar Robertson is the best guard I ever saw. Oscar was as dominant as Michael. His Royals just couldn’t beat the Russell Celtics, but then no one could. Oscar going to Milwaukee to get his title was like West getting Wilt or Doc getting Moses. The difference was those two received help and Oscar was sent to his help. That brings us to what critics would say about that; he wasn’t always well liked (neither was Michael, but he wasn’t ever traded- he left on his own more than once).
Jerry West was as tough a competitor as Michael. West is Mr. NBA for good reason. No one wanted to disappoint him. He sometimes scared teammates as much as he scared opponents (another similarity to Mike).
Magic Johnson made everyone better. He helped a Kareem, who was ready to retire hang around for another decade. He made the game fun again. He also revitalized veterans like McAdoo. Magic developed every part of his game to the point of having little to no weaknesses. He came into the league without being much of a shooter, but left with a much improved shot. He improved his game as did Michael, but he always made those around him better which wasn’t always true of Michael. He and Larry worked hard to out do each other and brought the league out of the dark days of the mid-seventies. (Remember the Finals on delayed tape?)
And of course Michael who was a terrific one on one player. He was more of a powerful Earl Monroe. He didn’t make his teammates better like Cousy, Isiah, Russell, Magic all did. He spent too many years scoring tons of points and not trusting teammates, which led to not winning. He eventually learned to win and had his Koufax years, but by then the other greats of his era were gone. This then led to a dark period in NBA history, which it still hasn’t fully recovered from.
Considering all of this, is Michael the greatest without any debate or anyone else in the conversation? You may still think so, but I don’t think it is so obvious.
Comment by Carl Braun — August 7, 2009 @ 4:48 pm
I’m not going to sit here and debate everything you are saying, because to put it simply, you are derailing the point that is being stated here.
Your sitting here talking about Magic making everyone better, yadi yada, and all, however let’s get this straight. Magic as an individual player was NOT on the same level as Michael Jordan, period.
You seem to give too much credit to Magic, Bird or w/e about them elevating the gameplay of their teammates, yet Michael did the exact samething within the 90’s, which is testament to their 6 Championships. Again, give credit where credit is due. I’m not going to sit here anymore and talk to you about entire “teams” from the 80’s and 90’s and what not anymore, because I’ve grown tired of doing so.
This is about the GREATEST PLAYER EVER, not their teammates or what not. Sure, they add a bit, however you simply put the facts where they are at. Russell, was a great team player, however again, you seem to slide over the fact that they had a HoF Team, in a league that had only 8-9 teams. Imagine how many more championships the Bulls could have won in the 90’s with 8-9 teams playing only…Wow, exactly my point.
I take nothing away from Russell, 11 Rings says it all, however being a Top-Tier Team Player, does not give him the “G.O.A.T.” status because his own personal gameplay, he actually pales in contrast to others.
Also, it’s absolutely ridiculous now that you make this “bold” claim that MJ was winning championships in a time period where their was no “other” greats? Are you serious here man? Barkley, Hawkeem, Alonzo, Shaq, Hill, Ewing, Robinson, Malone, Stockton, Drexler, Kemp, Peyton, Miller, etc, etc were not “good enough” greats for you?
Honestly man, that statement you said right there says it all completely period. They were all in their primes at practically the same time, with a few of them younger, however, let’s get this very straight out again.
Michael Jordan with his gameplay in the 80’s changed the way Defenses were being played, thus the reason why the 90’s was the most Defensive Dominant Oriented Teams Ever in NBA History. Think about that hard for a second here, along with all of the Greats during that Era.
You do know what Monster Rebounds does to things like Fast Breaks right? They Flat Out put them on Hold, that’s why during the 90’s, FBing was difficult to do, due to the very fact, NBA Teams were so dominant in the defensive side, it become difficult to do this like how it was seen in the 80’s where defensive games were sub-par in contrast to what took place in the 90’s.
MJ winning championships in a “dark age” is absolute horse collar vommit. In fact, I’d love to see the 80’s Lakers try and FastBreak in the Defensive Era of the 90’s, and I can guarantee you, it would not have been as frequent as what was seen in their 80’s Era. So to say that he didn’t win a “as good” as Era is hilarious.
Again, if we talk about “Greatest of All Time” we have to look at not just “championships”, but also their entire gameplay as well. This is why Michael is the greatest, and yes, he is head and shoulders above everyone else.
No Weaknesses <—— That’s what seperates MJ from everyone in this argument. You keep talking about how other greats elevated their teammates…yet MJ did this for ALL of his championship years. Why would all of his teammates lie, why would Phil lie about this?
It makes me wonder if you even really took time to look, because Phil stated this very specifically, that before 1991, Michael Jordan took the task of relying completely upon his own abilities to take them to WIN. Michael Jordan finally changed this philosophy in the 91 Championship season, just look at the Finals between the Lakers where instead of him taking those killer shots, it’s him feeding it to Paxon out in the open to destroy the Lakers.
88, 89, or 90 Jordan would NOT have done it to this kind of level when the game is close. Heck, even Magic made this clear in an interview that before 91, Michael was a dominant player, but he didn’t become the most dominant player until he elevated the play of his teammates, and once he did that, 6 Championships came into the frey. I agree with you, MJ did not have the “elevate his teammates” at the younger years, however once he did that, as Pat Riley said “No Team can beat a Jordan Lead Bulls”.
You want to use this against MJ, however what about Russell’s FT shooting? What about his “inside” game offensively? What about his First Step? What about Magic’s First Step? What’s so great about Magic’s Sub-Par Defensive Game? How are “less” complete players in their primes better then an MJ in his prime? BTW, a in his prime MJ was 91-93, a player who elevated the plays of his teammates and won 3 Straight Championships. Compare that Prime MJ to any other “in-his prime” NBA player, and the results all points to MJ as being the Greatest Ever.
Nobody on that list that you are naming off, even remotely comes as close to Michael’s own Personal Skills, not even Close.
This is why he’s the Greatest of All Time, and please, no more of him “well he didn’t elevate his teammates” statements, because that’s just completely untrue. Michael Jordan =’s No Real Weaknesses, and his stats+championships+DPY+More prove it.
Everyone else has something you can exploit, and that’s why MJ is the G.O.A.T.
Comment by Bub — August 9, 2009 @ 2:11 pm
i didnt like the list too much and can tell you are probably a celtics fan..
my list
1. mj, dont argue this please…
2.wilt
3.russel
4.big o
5. magic
Comment by ownz4life — September 4, 2009 @ 9:19 am
1. mj
2. kobe
3. lebron
4. d wade
5. wilt chamberlain
Comment by cdiaaz — March 12, 2010 @ 12:59 am
Can Jordan really be out of #1? Jordan was unstoppable. And without 2 early retirements, he would have won 9 or 10 titles and been finals MVP in every single one. Russell had a big impact on the game too, but Jordan is in another league. Lebron should challenge those two in the end.
Comment by pickingpros — March 17, 2010 @ 2:18 pm